‘What I wish I knew’ - Insights from Canada’s leading businesswomen
International Women’s Day has come and gone but conversations about gender equality must persist.
This exclusive interview takes a look into the lives of five of Canada’s leading businesswomen in the marketing, communications, and PR industries. Opening up about their personal experiences as women in their industries, we hear about times they were made to feel inferior, the changes they hope to see, the advice they would give to their younger selves, and more.
Q) WHAT’S AN EXAMPLE OF A TIME WHEN YOU WERE MADE TO FEEL INFERIOR IN THE WORKPLACE?
Sarah Thompson, President, dentsu media
“I was yelled at in front of my peers and colleagues over a power dynamic between leaders and their working relationship failing. It was embarrassing and to this day, I consider that if I was a man that male leader would never have yelled but feels he could because I was a woman. And this is a common theme of feeling like if I was male, I would be treated well. Another time was in a meeting with a vendor who was showing us their product, and the sales lead kept speaking over and “mansplaining” his own team member, a woman who was presenting the product. I asked him to stop and let her finish.”
Martine St-Victor, General Manager at Edelman Montréal & Communications Strategist
“I remember a client I had just met completely losing his cool and being as unelegant as one can be. I didn’t feel inferior but I know that was his objective. Instead, I just felt very embarrassed for him. “When people show you who they are, believe them” - Maya Angelou.”
Lisa Pasquin, President, Craft Public Relations
“Earlier in my career, I nominated myself for a fairly high-profile industry award, and I won. And I’ll never forget my (male) boss at the time coming into the office and telling me specifically that they weren’t going to do anything to recognize the award at the office because it might make other people feel badly. I was crushed, and that feeling really stuck with me. I hope it’s shaped the kind of leader I am today – our Act with Empathy value at Craft includes a commitment to “celebrate each other at every opportunity”.”
Phoebe Dey, Chief Marketing & Communications Officer, Cystic Fibrosis Canada
“I have been very fortunate throughout my career to work in mostly safe, respectful places so I’m happy I don’t have a lot of examples to choose from around times I was made to feel inferior. But they do exist. Some of the times were based on my own self-doubt or insecurity and might have been me creating a negative narrative in my head. Or maybe not believing in myself. The good old imposter syndrome. But there have been a few legitimate times where my opinion, voice or expertise was definitely dismissed. You need a thick skin to be in communications and marketing because it’s so public facing, can be subjective and everyone has an opinion on it. People often tell us how to do our jobs. “I’m not a marketing expert, but here’s what you should do….” is a phrase I’ve heard so many times over the last few decades. Few people would tell accountants or dentists, for example, how to approach their work, but it is open season with communications and marketing, especially the creative side of the field. I’ve learned to work hard to earn credibility and most of the time have been able to demonstrate or show evidence for why an approach or strategy is recommended. But there have been times that I’ve been completely dismissed.”
Q) IN YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, HOW HAS GENDER DISCRIMINATION/BIAS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN YOUR INDUSTRY?
Phoebe Dey:
“I think like many other fields there is likely a gender pay gap that needs to be addressed and if there are clear paths to promotion. I’ve been fortunate in that most of my leaders during my career have been women, so there has always been strong, highly-skilled female representation to look up to and model myself after. My first boss in communications and public affairs was an incredibly smart, creative, woman and I remember being early in my career, wondering, “will I ever be able to think as strategically as she does?” It felt impossible because my mind didn’t work like that when I was younger but I’m happy to report that while I might not be as quick a thinker as she was (I often need time to digest things….also, shout out to Lee Elliott) I developed some of those same skills that have helped my career progress to where it is now. I do think where gender bias manifests itself is when you work with either internal stakeholders or people outside the industry and your expertise as a leader is dismissed, often by men, who are leaders in their own field and want to drive the direction. And their voice overshadows yours. Or you have to defer to them because they’re important to the organization. I think these situations will continue to exist until others push back alongside you. I learned to earn as much respect as possible, demonstrate credibility and have turned some of those situations around when it went from, “let me help you do your job to…I’m good with whatever Phoebe recommends.” That’s incredibly satisfying.”
Sarah Thompson:
“Yes, it does in the microaggressions that happen daily and in the engrained misogyny that is in all genders. Workplace mistreatment of women is a pandemic of its own. Issues around women being overlooked for a promotion because of maternity leave to women being passed over for a promotion because they are a caregiver are still a part of the working world. As the inequality is relentless, so do organizations need to be to create a safe and productive workplace for women.”
Martine St-Victor:
“It comes down to financial compensation and opportunities to grow within a company. Who gets promoted? That is the metric to define whether or not there is gender discrimination.”
Q) WHO INSPIRES YOU IN YOUR INDUSTRY? HOW CAN WE LEARN FROM THEM?
Karen Zuccala, Head of Brand Strategy, Google
“Dr. Brené Brown, a research professor at the University of Houston, Graduate College of Social Work is someone who inspires me. She’s a fantastic storyteller and probably best known for her TEDx talk on the Power of Vulnerability on YouTube. How does social research work apply to marketing and communications? Well, as I see it, directly. Over the course of my career, I’ve struggled with vulnerability. I taught myself that to be ‘successful’ I needed to be confident, independent and guarded. I guess you could say that it was a result of consequence. At the beginning of my career, I worked in male-dominated industries where there were few female leaders in senior level positions. I determined that in order to move up in my career, I needed to be ‘professional’ and vulnerability wasn’t part of the equation. I’ve since learned that being vulnerable leads to connection, and the power of human connection is what gives meaning to our lives not only personally, but also professionally. Being vulnerable is not easy. It’s like a muscle you need to train. But when we create more connections with our colleagues, teams and clients, it creates the space for exciting possibilities, unleashes new ideas and inspires work that has never been done before.”
Lisa Pasquin:
“I’m so lucky to work every day alongside so many incredible women that it’s impossible to choose just one. I’m going for a top four – I hope that’s okay! Melissa Retty. I’ll start closest to home! Melissa was the first hire I made at Craft and is today the agency’s Senior Vice President. We’ve worked together for more than 10 years, and every day, Melissa reminds me about the power of leading with empathy. So much of Craft’s highest value – care – comes from her. Mary Lowe. Mary is the Vice President, Public Affairs at Restaurant Brands International and an incredible client partner. I’m inspired by her ability to define and communicate a clear, consistent and inspiring vision. And, especially critical when you lead communications for a brand and business like Tim Hortons, how to maintain focus on the things that really matter. Ashley Curran. Ashley is the Associate Vice President of Community Impact and Sports Partnerships at Canadian Tire. We’re lucky to get to work with her on the brand’s Jumpstart Charities. There are few people in Canada who push their organizations to truly live their values like Ashley – something you’re well aware of if you were following the company’s recent announcements around championing gender equity in sport. Sue Kuruvilla. Sue is a former colleague and a dear friend who was recently named the Publisher of Random House Canada. Sue is one of the most deeply interesting people I know –an effortless connector of people and a tireless learner. Plus, she always has the best book recommendations! I’m currently enjoying her latest pick: Rick Rubin’s The Creative Act: A Way Of Being.”
Martine St-Victor:
“She passed in 2022, alas. Her name was Clarence Loth-Nadeau. She’s the first person I met who was in PR. I was a pre-teen. She was worldly and curious. I was intrigued.”
Sarah Thompson:
“There are so many amazing female leaders I have come across in my career from Dervla Kelly at Corus to Christine Sinclair at Publicis. And the reason I admire these women is that they are trying to make a difference, they are truly themselves and they inspire their people.”
Q) IN WHAT WAYS DO YOU STRIVE TO EMPOWER AND INSPIRE THE OTHER WOMEN AROUND YOU?
Lisa Pasquin:
“I think there’s nothing more powerful than leading with honesty and transparency. Just recently, for example, we made a pretty bold decision to publicly share Craft’s salary bands on LinkedIn. A huge part of our motivation? The fact that women in Canada still earn 89 cents for every dollar earned by men. Racialized women take home, on average, less than 60% of a white man’s earnings. Among women and gender diverse people with a physical disability, only 16% report being fairly paid compared to their peers. And the Canadian marketing community is not immune. A 2021 study from the World Federation of Advertisers confirmed “strong evidence” of a gender pay gap in the Canadian advertising industry. Women in advertising in Canada make 5% less than men in executive and c-suite positions, and an astonishing 20% less than their male counterparts at trainee and junior executive ranks. The gap for racialized employees at the junior level was even worse: 22%. But pay transparency can help. In fact, The Canadian Women’s Foundation named it as one of three “bold steps” companies and governments can take to help close the gender pay gap. The response to our post (and trust me, it wasn’t an easy post to make) has been overwhelming – and has served as an amazing reminder of the power of vulnerability.”
Karen Zuccala:
“Sometimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to think that we need to stand on a grand stage to empower and inspire women around us. In my opinion, the micro moments are the ones that matter. An impromptu conversation, accepting a coffee chat with someone looking for career advice or sharing in-the-moment feedback when you’ve seen someone do something remarkable. Often, these micro moments aren’t planned, but can have a lasting and powerful impact on someone's life. Giving myself permission to be flexible and carve out time for these conversations is something I’ve personally committed to in the hope of empowering and inspiring other women.”
Sarah Thompson:
“To stand up, to have a point of view, to lift other women up, and to challenge my own engrained misogyny.”
Phoebe Dey:
“I am surrounded by so many incredible women and I continue to learn from all of them every day, starting with my sisters and my mom. I try to widen my circle as much as possible to learn from a diverse group of people where I’m either collaborating with them or genuinely cheering them on. I’m a firm believer in the saying that your light doesn’t dim when you help someone else shine (I may have heavily paraphrased that). If women can’t always see their own strengths, I try to help them see them. My current marcomms team is all female and they range from early in their career to more seasoned members. I try to encourage them to take care of their minds as much as we take care of what we need to achieve at work, to not worry about balancing life perfectly. I try not to glorify the hustle culture. I also work hard to model good leadership and I’m at my second organization with an almost all-female executive team so I love that our younger colleagues can see a pathway to more leadership if they want one. Writer Kate Baer says it well in her poem Moon Song, in her book, “What Kind of Woman.” She says we can be whatever we want to be. Or don’t want to be. She writes, “You do not have to choose one or the other: a dream or a dreamer, the bird or the birder. You may be a woman of commotion and quiet. Magic and brain.” I am a woman of both commotion and quiet. And that’s ok. As she says, you can be the sun and the moon. Or you can be neither. That’s what’s glorious—we get to decide who we want to be and write our own definitions of what that should look like.
Martine St-Victor:
“By making sure everyone is heard and seen.”
Q) WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO YOUR YOUNGER SELF REGARDING HER FUTURE CAREER AND THE CHALLENGES SHE WOULD INEVITABLY FACE?
Martine St-Victor:
“Don’t compare yourself to others. Trust your flair and respect the process. Things that matter can take time.”
Karen Zuccala:
“Say Yes. At some point in all of our lives we experience a lack of confidence and that prevents us from taking risks, exposing ourselves to new experiences and fearing failure. I’ve seen many women struggle with this and I’ve struggled with it too. If you don’t say yes, and take the plunge, you will never know what you missed out on. Surround yourself with good books, podcasts, friends, family, mentors, coaches and people you can trust. Never stop learning and bettering yourself. All of these combined will unlock new strategies and ways of navigating situations that will boost your confidence in yourself, while reminding you of the person you are and who you want to be.”
Lisa Pasquin:
“Other than to warn myself that I would really live to regret the decision to dye my hair platinum blond? Honestly? I think it would be simply to have more fun. This is an amazing career, and a wonderful industry and on most days, I feel truly lucky to get to do what I do. I wish I had spent less time worrying (about EVERYTHING – what people thought of me, when my next promotion was coming, how people would react to my ideas) and more time just enjoying – the projects I got to be part of, the people I got to learn from and the amazing teams I got to be part of.”
Phoebe Day:
“I would tell myself to not worry about being the quietest one in the room. That even though you might not speak a lot right now, people will soon pay attention when you do. And that there will come a day that you will lean into the strengths that at one time might not have been considered good leadership qualities: being a caring, empathetic, curious and kind leader will produce just as good (or even better) business results as leaders who focus on the “hard skills.” You can be both competent and caring and your team will want to deliver the best results for you because you care about them as human beings, too. I would say it’s ok to be vulnerable and say “you don’t know.” And I would say, believe it or not, this public speaking thing that absolutely terrifies you will be something that gets you invited to see the world, meet new people and enable you to continue learning. Also, you will grow to love the skin you’re in. On a practical front, I would say you’ll soon learn from a communications guru named Caroline Kealey who will tell you that one of the best ways a communications professional can up her game is measure, measure, measure. And that you’ll build your credibility and get that seat at the table by measuring the right things, building strong relationships and using that strategic mind you only wished you could have.”
Q) In recent years many companies have shared their “Commitment to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” statements. Do you believe the marketing/communications/PR industry falls short when it comes to reflecting these commitments?
Martine St-Victor:
“For a long time, it did. For a long time, many stories weren’t being told, many voices weren’t being heard and in our industry, it is our job to create platforms and opportunities for stories to be told and voices to be heard. That’s changing and we have the opportunity and the responsibility to influence other industries to also be more inclusive.”
Karen Zuccala:
“We’ve made progress, but we still have work to do. In comparison to when I started my career where many of the industries I worked in were male-dominated from a senior-leadership perspective, I’ve seen positive steps taken across various levels of companies across diversity, equity and inclusion. In fact, over the past 5-8 years I’ve witnessed the most change which makes me very hopeful for new generations that are entering the workforce today so that they have role models they can relate to and look up to as they start on their journeys. My hope is that diversity, equity and inclusion is the ‘norm’ and something that we no longer have to advocate for, it simply is. What has excited me the most is seeing companies take bold steps like the Bank of Montreal who featured several YouTube creators, including Priyanka, the winner of the inaugural seasons of Canada’s Drag Race in their marketing campaign. Consumers support brands that support causes they care about. My challenge to brands is to use their voice to take a stance for the causes and communities they support.”
Sarah Thompson:
“We are doing a great job of attracting talent, we need to do better at retaining talent and supporting their growth in our agencies. This is a big focus for dentsu and my leadership team.”
Phoebe Dey:
“As we were getting ready for International Women’s Day this year, I saw a tweet by someone I admire in our field reminding people not to be performative as we approach this important day. Advita Patel is a Communications and Inclusion strategist and sent out a reminder about five communication pitfalls to avoid during International Women’s Day, which often leads to a flurry of marketing and communications efforts by organizations. The gist of her message is to avoid tokenism, ask yourself if the organization has made any improvements since the last IWD (closed the gender pay gap, promoted more women to senior roles, improved policies, etc)? And that women are not a homogenous group, so consider your biases. Hopefully this work is discussed throughout the year and not just on one day. That post was related to IWD but can be applied to diversity, equity and inclusion statements in general. I think we’ve come a long way in the last few years and there was a flood of activity and effort after the death of George Floyd when many people and companies looked inwards but there is still so much to learn and unlearn in our field. And then let our actions and behaviours speak for themselves. P.S. Advita and another comms pro I admire, Priya Bates, are about to release their book, “Building a Culture of Inclusivity,” that focuses on effective internal communication for diversity, equity and inclusion which help many of us in our field.”
Interviewed by Sydney Vardja, MNC Editor & PR Specialist.